Spong 'Preaches' in San Antonio
Do you wonder why I hate going to presbytery meetings? We have so little in common, that it feels like a ruse sometimes.
I just found out today that Madison Square Presbyterian Church in San Antonio hosted an event for the community and John Shelby Spong was the speaker. That's their right.
But then I kept reading and found out that it was much worse: he preached there!
John Shelby Spong....preached?
Yeah, you heard it right! A Presbyterian church opened their doors and gave aid and comfort to one of Christianity's most vocal critics in the media today. They gave the sanction of their pulpit to a false teacher.
So, I have to ask: What does our name mean anymore?
This stuff should not surprise me. This is the same church that let John Dominic Crossan preach in worship. My protests about this fell on deaf ears, both at that church's session and at Mission Presbytery's COM.
We no longer have any interest in being Reformed, Biblical or even Christian in this presbytery.
Why would I say such a thing?
This congregation has been a leader in this presbytery for years. Their pastors are everywhere lauded and applauded. They serve at every level of our governance.
So what else am I to conclude from this?We are incapacitated by ease and afraid to challenge people for their actions. At this present time, St. Andrews goes undisciplined, having deleted the Lordship of Christ from their church and now the Jesus Seminar gets star billing in our pulpits.
I guess that to preach at Madison Square one must simply deny the resurrection of Jesus, the reliability and authority of Scripture and think that Christians are poor deluded idiots.
Last year I made the decision to stop taking communion at presbytery meetings. I did not 'discern the Body' as Paul instructed. That decision must still be in effect for me.
The leadership of this presbytery knew about this travesty. They knew and did nothing.
So, readers. What is a classical Presbyterian in south Texas to do? Should I resign from the General Council, on which I serve? Should I stop attending meetings? I'm at a loss.
I will await your counsel. I can't take anymore of this nonsense that is being done in the good name of so many faithful Presbyterians.
Posts
38 remonstrances:
Do you know what he said?
Me, neither. How can you condemn him if you don't know what he said?
I looked at their link for sermons, but that week isn't posted yet. They're about as far behind in posting sermons as my church.
It's a shame when people spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt without even knowing anything about the topic.
Mark,
I appreciate your urge to caution.
But this guy has published about 50 books. They are all pretty clear--he has nothing in common with Presbyterian faith. Even the progressives I know are not out in his portion of Left field!
Just google him, the rest will become clear.
So what you're saying is that we should never allow someone from another tradition to preach? Only if they stick to Presbyterian principles?
Not very ecumenical.
Or is it just people that you disagree with?
But beyond that - DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? Did he perhaps preach a totally faithful sermon that you would agree with? (I'd be willing to bet against that, but it could happen.)
I'm sick and tired of people filing disciplinary complaints against people that they've never met. Shortly after that on my list of annoyances is people complaining about speeches that they've never heard and books that they've never read.
Mark-
Christianity must change, or die- ths is what he said.
A personal theistic view of God, makes no sense in a pomo world.
our understanding of post-newtonian physiscs makes the virgine birth impossible to beleive...
do I need to go any further?
it isn't merely 'presbyterian' principles that are absent from anythign Spong writes or preaches- it is nicean Chrisitanity which is absent.
Here is a link to a very similar complaint against Spong, with the details.
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5505
Toby
Thanks for the link to Madison Square Presbyterian Church. What a terrific church! I always go to the mission portion and see what a church’s outreach is. That let’s me know what a church is all about. If the church is anything like what is presented on the website, I can understand why they are “lauded and applauded” within the presbytery.
I’ve read some of Spong’s work. I agree and disagree with aspects of his work. Are you advocating an approved list of speakers for the PCUSA? I like the diversity of opinions. I’m not a heresy seeker.
I was floored by your “decision to stop taking communion at presbytery meetings.” Are your brothers and sisters in the Mission Presbytery not pure enough for you? How does one “discern the Body?” I take communion whenever it is served. I’m I missing anything?
I really do not understand why you stay, if you are so unhappy. From experience I can assure you that controversy will be around 30 years from. The only changes will be the misuses, maybe.
Don't approve and condemn their choice of a preacher? Won't take communion with those you disagree? How Papal of you.
"Adult Education at Madison Square
February 4 – The Sins of Scripture—Exposing the Bible’s Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love—by John Shelby Spong – This will conclude this study. February 11 – Bishop John Shelby Spong – Teaching Sunday School as part of Roley lectures."
Enough said!
Viola
Enough said? Was that Joan Crawford or Bette Davis.
The disingenuous comments from your friends notwithstanding, we all know what Spong said-- he's been saying it for years, and the blurb from the website confirms it. My question is, "how does your reaction lead anyone, even those who agree with you, closer to Christ?"
I would draw your attention, Toby, to Paul Detterman's response to last weekend's events (it's on Presbyweb, and the PFR website) Maybe we need to let Christ make some new wine before we concern ourselves with the wineskin.
Mark,
You said "So what you're saying is that we should never allow someone from another tradition to preach? Only if they stick to Presbyterian principles?".
Yes, that's exactly what I would say.
Toby -- you're a good man. Hang in there.
The purpose of the pulpit is, as an old homiletics professor told me, "to pull folks out of the pit [of Hell]!" That's only done with one thing - the preaching of the gospel.
If you want to have a study group where there are no privileged truth claims - or at least none from Western Civilization - go to college. Heck - study one of Spong's books in a church reading group (as long as it's balanced with historical truth).
But the pulpit is for the grace of preaching, declaring things that are foolishness to Greeks (self-wise) and stumbling blocks to the Jews. Woe be it unto us if we use the pulpit for anything other than the preaching of the Word!
I hope you're not serious about resigning from GC over this. If you're staying in the PCUSA for now, stay with all your might!
Toby,
Looking at the work of Madison Square, I see a faithful Presbyterian Church. I suspect Cuero is also a faithful Presbyterian Church. But when we get to the Kingdom, you guys will have to be put in a special room to shield you from the dismay that might flood your eternity when you realize Madison Square folk and other assorted liberals are there too. That's okay, the Church of Christ can keep you company in there.
Madison Square looks like an awesome church.
When will people understand that your works are of no consequence if your faith is not in Jesus Christ. It sickens me that in a Reformed denomination that we have now gone to the opposite side of the Lutherans and now scream sanctification and whisper justification. Our Faith has made us well not the works of our flesh but the faith of our heart. It does not matter how many missions you have started or how many people you have fed if you do not profess Jesus Christ as Lord. The Pharisees did good works and fed the poor and took care of the needy but were chastised by Christ because they did so not out of reverence for the Law or for obedience to YHWH but for personal gratification. Works are useless without Christ first. "Being Good" does not get you into good graces with Christ but only by Faith are you saved. We cannot attain righteousness through the works of our sinful flesh but can only perform good works if we are made righteous by Christ. Christ is first, Christ is last, and Christ is forever.
Amen Backwoods!!!!
-KG
Apart from faith, it is impossible to please God.
Read the rest of Hebrews and you'll see exactly what the author means by "faith."
[Hint: it's not some content-free responsivity to religious impulses!]
Pastor Toby,
It makes sense not to take communion with such folks:
"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat." 1 Corinthians 5:11
Now, we certainly should associate with those who do not call themselves our Christian siblings yet who sin in the ways described by Paul. But Scripture is clear that the Lord's greatest condemnation is for those who claim to be in God's family yet deny the truth and power of God and His word. With such, association only weakens our own witness and faith.
EPC, anyone?
To the most recent Anonymous,
Who decides what is 'orthodox' you ask?
Presbyterians have documents called confessions. They are what we affirm as biblical teachings of orthodoxy.
The order of authoritative documents for determining orthodoxy is this:
First--The Bible
Second--The ecumenical creeds and Reformed Confessions
Third--The witness of the Church catholic
Those who stand closest to these standards of faith and practice are called 'orthodox'. I take that to also be a synonym for 'evangelical' as well.
I suggest getting a hold of J.I. Packer's magnificent books to start: "Knowing God" and "Fundamentalism and The Word of God".
Amazon or CBD has them at great prices.
Read and enjoy!
"Yeah, you heard it right! A Presbyterian church opened their doors and gave aid and comfort to one of Christianity's most vocal critics in the media today. They gave the sanction of their pulpit to a false teacher."
Written (mostly) tongue in cheek: Wow, are Presbyterian elders, deacons and ministers of the word and sacrament really so fragile that they can't listen to some old man without falling apart? Is their faith really so weak that hearing someone with a radically different viewpoint is going to shake it? We've had Jewish and Islamic leaders speak at our church during adult education and somehow we all managed to get through it without converting. Maybe we Michiganders are just made of sterner stuff. ;)
I've read several of his books, and I think he's completely wrong about a great many things. However, simply reading his books didn't shake my faith. Perhaps he's a better speaker than he is a writer? :)
I don't suppose anyone thought that it might be a good opportunity to minister to Spong, did they? Well, I suppose simply denouncing him takes less time.
Alan,
One cannot minister to an apostate. We minister to unbelievers and sinners.
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."
Galatians 1:8-9
Those who heard the Gospel and then denied its power (or pervert it) are anathema to us. Our job is to refute and oppose them in a Christian manner. (2 Tim 2:25)
See also Jude:
"Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
Whoa! So much for a weak Jesus!
I'm downright NICE in comparison to Jude, the brother of James!
There is a false premise being advanced in some comments here - that this is about conversation or even ministry to Bishop Spong. The bishop has widely disseminated his opinions - and it is clear that these are at complete odds with orthodox Christianity. The issue is not hearing Spong. The issue is not reading Spong. The issue is that by having the bishop preach in a church that church is effectively endorsing him. And yes, the members / leadership of that church who made this decision can pretend to feel mature, intelligent, tolerant, open; but at the bottom line, they have endorsed, and by endorsing approved of that which directly contradicts Christianity. As private persons they are free to do this - but because of the oft vaunted connectional nature of our denomination, their unilateral choice includes all others within the denomination.
There are certain ideas that we cannot endorse - whether in the name of tolerance or hospitality or not. And to be made party to them by the decisions of others is not fair.
Functionally virtually everyone in the PC(USA) accepts this - consider, for example, the reaction if a church, acting on its own initiative hosted a Klan meeting or featured lectures from David Duke. Obviously Bishop Spong is not speaking about the same types of ideas as the Klan or Duke, but his public statements and writings are clearly outside of the bounds of historic Christianity. Because these ideas are becoming fashionable in certain groups does not change this fact.
"One cannot minister to an apostate. We minister to unbelievers and sinners."
So that "evangelical" label is just an honorary title? ;)
Alan,
Strangely enough, just by EXISTING ans sticking to what we believe, we are actually ministering to the whole world.
But it is beyond my power to change the hardened mind of one who once professed Christ and then denied him.
We leave those persons to God and we go back to our evangelical purpose--witnessing to non-Christians.
Two words: Cop out.
And frankly not very "classically" Presbyterian. It is indeed beyond your power to change the mind of someone who once professed Christ and now denies him, just as it is beyond your power to change anyone's mind about anything ever. Respectfully, one would think that as a minister you'd remember that faith is a gift of grace, not something imparted by clergy. One would also think that you'd realize that the very concept of apostasy is decidedly un-Calvinist: one cannot fall away from irresistible grace. However none of that releases us from the responsibility to preach the Good News to anyone and everyone we meet.
Also respectfully, I think your evangelical purpose is broader than witnessing to non-Christians. I think Christians could use a little witnessing now and then as well. Even, perhaps, those you disagree with. So then, did you actually discuss your misgivings one-on-one with those who organized Spong's speaking engagement before complaining about an event you did not attend, publicly on your blog?
It is interesting that Calvin also spoke considerably about apostasy - very uncalvinist of him, no doubt.
If discussion of misgivings could occur before the event that might be a viable possibility. After such an event, however, there is very little point. The event itself has been a public endorsement of the bishop to which many Presbyterians cannot assent. The only remedy is public rejection of that endorsement.
I also am skeptical that people host Bishop Spong without knowing his very publicly stated perspectives - this is a hazard of dealing with celebrities.
Calvin does indeed speak about apostasy, particularly in the Institutes, books III and IV. However, he does not mean it as we typically do today as a "falling away" (the meaning Toby is using -- "one who once professed Christ and then denied him."). Rather, according to Calvin, they are folks who are not members of the elect to begin with.
Alan - you're of course right about how Calvin uses the term. But nothing prohibits a person who is not elect from claiming to profess Christ. I may be misunderstanding how this bears on Toby's use of the word.
Alan,
Please carefully notice the words that I used:
I never claimed that 'those who once professed Christ' were regenerate. Those are separate categories.
PLENTY of folk profess Christ as Lord and Savior and even ACT Christian, who are never actually actually 'born again' (regenerated).
And, on the flip side, there are some who look pretty awful to you and me, who ARE.
An 'apostate' person is one who once made public profession who now no longer holds to that position. The term implies a purpesful renunciation of the Lordship and salvation of Jesus Christ--it's willful and knowingly done.
In other words, Spong fits the term to a tee. You might just as well put his picture right next to the word apostate in the dictionary.
Giving him a Presbyterian pulpit is a disgrace and shames all who carry the name PCUSA.
Well, Toby, speak for yourself. I don't feel shamed in the least. I probably disagree with 99% of whatever it is Spong said, but shamed? Nope, not at all.
I don't need the thought police to tell me what I can and cannot listen to. People with radically different, even non-Christian viewpoints can be politely listened to and I'm not so fragile that it's going to shake my faith.
Tempest in a teapot. I think some people just look for things to over which to get offended.
Alan,
I always speak for myself! :)
I'll issue this legal disclaimer:
"This Blog and its contents are the sole expression of its owner and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PCUSA, Mission Presbytery, or Presbyterians in general and in all probability do not reflect the thoughts or opinions of anyone else on God's green Earth."
That should make it clear!
Glad to hear it! For a second there, I thought that this statement:
"Giving him a Presbyterian pulpit is a disgrace and shames all who carry the name PCUSA."
Included me. ;)
Gee, I thought it included me too.
No shame here from Bishop Spong. Now from closed-minded pastors ....
To Mark and Alan, I've been reading your comments that (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you both have no problem (being open minded people) allowing someone to take the pulpit that preaches something totally different than reformed theology believes?
-Because your faith is strong enough not to be shaken by them?
-If that is true I applaud the strength of your faith. Unfortunatly, not everyone has faith that strong. Alot of us go into a church believing that the person behind the pulpit represents the thoughts and beliefs of that church.
-We need to minister to people of all levels faith, especially when it comes to the Worship Service.
-If this church wanted to hold a special class where the intent and specifically noted/advertised that Bishop Spong does not believe what the CHurch believes, then so be it. They didn't.
-I think we need to remember believers of all levels of faith when it comes to our Worship Services. Who are we there to worship?
KG...
First of all, this whole conversation is simply speculation since this post provides no evidence at all that Spong's sermon, "Why I am a Christian" was out of line.
Bishop Spong is an Anglican. So, by definition he's going to preach something other than Reformed theology. Obviously, the same would be true if a Methodist preached in a PCUSA church, for example. Let's not turn the pulpit into an idol, nor is the chancel the "Holy of Holies" that only PCUSA ministers can approach. On the majority of Sundays, the congregation is going to hear from a PCUSA minister. But once in a while, hearing someone else doesn't seem to be the big fat hairy deal that this post makes it out to be. I think most people can understand the concept of a "guest preacher." And, I think most people can think for themselves and decide if what they're hearing is right or wrong.
I attend a PCUSA church which shares a building with an Episcopal church. Once a month we have combined worship, and every other month the St. Aidan's rector gives the sermon. Somehow I've survived these many years without converting to Anglicanism, and in fact, no members, young or old have converted. We get along and learn from each other, celebrating our similarities and our differences.
Fact is, there are plenty of people out there in the world who might have something useful or interesting or even enlightening to say that we could hear. We can take those portions of those messages and discard those portions with which we disagree. And we might even get the chance to share the Gospel with them at the same time!
We have strict rules about requiring PCUSA ministers to be present to administer the sacraments. We have strict rules about having Sessions examine new members. I don't think we have strict rules that say we must only have PCUSA ministers preach on a Sunday morning.
Perhaps it's the rough winters up here in Michigan have made me a bit thick skinned, but I just don't think people are all that fragile -- unless they're looking for something to be upset about.
You ask, "Who are we there to worship?" Well, obviously not the preacher.
According to the Second Helvetic Confession 9Just to keep us squarely in the reformed tradition) the sermon is the word of God. And this is precisely why faithful presbyterian churches should not turn their pulpits over to speakers who denounce all validity to scripture, renounce the notion of a theistic God, and do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. period. With all do respect to our brother in Christ from Michigan, treating the pulpit the way you suggest with just anyone allowed to be a guest speaker turns worship into a lions club meeting with an occasional mission program and the pulpit is no longer a pulpit but simply a podium. What ever happen to the day when ministers took their pulpit seriously and did not "neglect the gift given to you" to coin a phrase from 1 timothy?
As to getting off your committee or avoiding presbytery meetings, consider them your cross to bear and live out both your faithful witness to the gospel and your ordination vow so that you can sleep at night.
Circuit Rider,
Thanks so much for that!
I had never really thought of it in those terms...
I have already decided to stay put and keep fighting, but you urgings really added some depth to the meaning of the thing for me.
The whole 'communion of the saints' really works, doesn't it?
Thanks again.
"With all do respect to our brother in Christ from Michigan, treating the pulpit the way you suggest with just anyone allowed to be a guest speaker turns worship into a lions club meeting with an occasional mission program and the pulpit is no longer a pulpit but simply a podium. "
That's not what I said at all. You certainly do present an amusing parody of what I've written, and perhaps you even believe that's what I meant. It isn't.
"With all do respect" should not simply be a phrase used to soften the blow of stating one's disagreement with someone. It should mean that you at least respect another's ideas enough not to turn them into silly straw men simply because you disagree with them.
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