Confessions of a PC(USA) Fundamentalist, Part Two: Seeing the Unity
I remember how I used to laugh at the kind of person that I found myself now becoming. I used to find an unending source of amusement when I heard people saying the type of things that I was actually now contemplating. It was quite a time in my life.
Being a pastor has changed me as a person. I came out of seminary believing what I had been taught, trained in the school of academic thought that says that anyone who thinks the Bible is without inner contradictions, that it was actually written by the people who the books themselves claim wrote them is a brainless dope. In short, I was a well-trained historical-critical, Neoliberal pastor.
I was launched out of the halls of academia into the parish with shelves full of books that would refute any notion that the Bible was consistent, had a central, coherent message and had historical accuracy. I had all the arguments, all the pride, ready to correct all of the simpletons that I would meet in my ministry. Little did I know what God had in store for me, to make me precisely the kind of person that I had trained to correct. God does have a sense of humor!
In the parish I had a rigorous preaching schedule and I taught a regular Sunday morning Bible study before the worship service. Week after week several church members and I engaged the Scriptures and discussed their meaning. In that class I found myself with two people in particular who had been taught under the teaching ministry of R.C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. They loved me and I loved them, so week after week we engaged each other in the attempt to convince the other that they misunderstood the interpretation and purpose of Scripture.
I found myself losing the argument, week after week.
Being prideful, I started to investigate these outrageous claims that I was unable to refute. These people anticipated my every argument, every counter-move and every point that my seminary training had taught me! It was extremely frustrating...
Concurrently, I found that in this time my preaching had also started to suffer. I had run out of ideas. My faith slipped further into irrelevancy. It was only at the funerals that I could preach with clarity and conviction. Somehow, it was in speaking of the gospel promises of Christ that I sensed what I had been missing.
So, I started reading. Not my seminary texts. They could not, had not helped. I started reading strange fellows, people that had never been even mentioned in either of my two mainline seminaries.
Funny how that happens.
We had read radical feminists. We read Mujerista and medieval mysticism from Spanish and French convents. We grappled with Marxist Liberationists and Tillich as a side dish to our Barth. We played with some Calvin, but he was mostly an afterthought.
But now I started to read these wild and strange fellows that had been verboten in the seminary, they who must not named: I started reading J.I. Packer. I read Graeme Goldsworthy and D.A. Carson. I remember it so clearly--They were so rational and so clear! They were so confident and yet humble in their assuredness that the Bible really was without error and had a sweeping unity of narrative.
The scales fell from my eyes. Now, I began to understand why these writers had been hidden from us! They had just as much academic training and credentials as the people the seminary adored, but these theologians and biblical scholars had come to the opposite conclusion after studying the same data! They were utterly convincing.
I began to see where I had gone wrong. I had always been taught that Scripture was a patchwork of human ideas about God that were mutually contradictory yet somehow inspired by God to teach us about the love of Christ. The basic notion had been that Jesus came to teach us what was wrong with Scripture itself. Isn't that funny? That's what I came out of seminary with, the idea that we could take some things from the Bible that worked for us in the modern world and discard the rest, as long as Jesus said it was ok.
Suddenly, I found Jesus in the Old Testament. Imagine that! I found the whole sweep of God's redemptive history in the full and complete witness of the whole 66 chapters in the one book of the Bible. I saw it now--as an opening, a middle and a finale. One Author, many witnesses, one story.
I realized that this is what Jesus had been trying to teach his disciples all along. I found that the Reformed hermeneutic had all the answers to my questions about the Bible, that Reformed theology took the whole witness and counsel of the Bible into account. I discovered that the Reformed faith was the only witness that did this. There were no gaps, no messy contradictions, no muddy compromises. Just clarity and peace. Perfect peace.
Now Psalm 119 made sense to me. Jesus loves his Father's Law! He fulfilled it and completed it so that sinners could be saved. God so inspired the Word in the diverse witnesses of the Bible's books that believers are led by the Spirit to see God as the Author.
I had jumped the shark, so to speak. As a mainline, PC(USA) pastor I had found myself the guy that I used to laugh about. That mocking derision to the simple-minded folk who actually claimed what I now claimed about the Bible was directed at me. You see, in the mainline church culture, it only works one way: conservatives and evangelicals can turn liberal. But never, never the reverse! A liberal turning fundamentalist is a violation of the contract. Oh well...
So here I am. A PC(USA) pastor, not going anywhere, who is now the person that I never expected to become. A minority of a dwindling minority.
And I wouldn't trade it for any treasure in all the world.



84 remonstrances:
That's a great post! Wow, what a story. Would it be ok if I quoted it/linked it on my own blog?
And, if I may ask, which seminary did you attend?
Toby,
I'm enjoying your story and am a bit curious about the wife's perspective, since this was probably a joint journey (though I may be assuming). Can she be a guest writer?
Tim,
Link away!
I attended Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary from 1997 to 200 and then had to transfer to a Disciples of Christ seminary, Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa to finish in 2001.
I second Tim's question, as I someone I know has had a whole different experience at seminary.
Urp, cross posted.
Well that explains a few things. You'd think that in Austin, there would be more conservative teaching.
Toby,
I am enjoying this so much. I am also interested in the question about your wife and her perspective.
Thinking gal,
Yes, Rev.Mrs was a part of this journey. But she has always been a rock, my constant companion. When I was inconstant and variable, she was solid and mostly patient.
But I am a piece of work... :)
Another great post, Toby.
I remember reading the story of an Orthodox priest. He'd had provincial training and had been priested, but set his sights on an academic career. He went off to either Yale or Harvard (can't remember) for his MDiv / STM / PhD. While he was going through his coursework, he began to have doubts about the whole enterprise of faith and Christianity.
However, to pay the bills, he served a church. (Orthodox are in short supply.) The liturgy was so full of Scripture that he found God challenging his unbelief and answering his questions through the lectionary readings. By the time he'd gotten through his program, he was a full-fledged Orthodox fundamentalist.
God's Word and his words are kinda funny that way.
"Build solidly. Prepare thoroughly. Never be satisfied with superficial answers. God’s Word can stand the most thorough investigation. Do not shirk the difficult problems but seek to bring the facts to light, for God’s Word and God’s world will never contradict one another."-- Dr. Robert D. Wilson
Thanks for sharing your journey, Toby. This is fascinating.
I see some parallels in myself.
It also reminds me of the friend who told me that she never could believe in double predestination until she heard a lecture by R. C. Sproul on the subject.
Toby, how was Phillips TS in comparison to Austin Seminary?
Incidently, I know of an ARP pastor (PCUSA at the time) who went to Columbia Seminary. He said it was a difficult experience, but he helped lead six folks (seminary students and their spouses) to Christ while he was there!
Toby,
What a wonderful testimony to the grace and power of the Word of God.
I taught undergraduate college students and know how vulnerable and teachable they can be. That is why I often point to apostacy and heresy at the university level as the major root cause of the apostacy of mainline denominations.
Once, while teaching an undergraduate Old Testament survey course, I had a student approach me after about 4 weeks. She thanked me profusely, telling me how grateful her parents were as well that a staunch evangelical was teaching the course. I of course taught them the higher critical, documentary hypothesis (in passing), then went on to refute it, teaching them instead a thorough content and basic theology of the Old Testament. Students later told me how the power of the Word of God changed a great deal of their liberal assumptions. I did not hesitate communicating the gospel regularly in that class.
May the Lord continue to bless your ministry as you preach the inerrant Word of the Living God.
In Him,
Adel
Toby,
It strikes me as a serious tactical error that we seek to convince people of the truthfulness of the Bible outside of a community that has been transformed by the truthfulness of the Lord.
What do I mean? I mean that once someone is convinced that God is who He says He is, and Jesus is who He says He is, then believing the Scripture's testimony is a given - based on trust.
Granted, neither the person nor the text stand in isolation (a la the Word made flesh). Nevertheless, we can be very intent on proving that the Bible is x or y without having any interest in our interlocutors knowing the WHO of Scripture.
May we all welcome teachers who strive to have the Word of Christ dwell in us richly.
Toby,
Great post. Great encouragement. Thank you!
I also can't help but think of Augustine's (?) dictum- of "faith seeking understanding" -- ie belief/submission to Christ coming prior to understanding, and how opposite that is to the acadamies approach of understanding so that one can believe.
blessings in the packing,
dm
Toby,
One other thought I had on your post. Your statement, "Suddenly, I found Jesus in the Old Testament. Imagine that!" is such a refreshing comment.
I think one of my biggest complaints about liberal and progressive theology is their failure to find Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, when Jesus actually pointed to himself there.
(Luke 24:27)They are Gnostics in their refusal to see Jesus in the Hebrew Bible.
Great post, Toby. Thank you!
Amen, Viola!
I had a Hebrew professor throw chalk at me because I kept bringing up how the Psalms pointed to Christ or where they were interpreted with divine imprimatur in the New Testament. (Thanks, NIV Study Bible Notes and Intros!)
You can imagine the ruckus when she started shouting that Psalm 22 had nothing to do with Jesus.
She really threw chalk at you?????!!!!! That's assault (and battery, if the chalk hit you).
Toby,
I had my epiphany inbetween college and seminary. The first class that I took was a youth ministry class with a feminist prof who scared me to death.
Fortunately I was able to hook up with some likeminded friends that first year that helped me keep my sanity and my faith.
Jim
That actually made me laugh, Chris.
I don't know how you managed to get through your seminary experiences sometimes. (It has kind of struck me as horrifying how the 'tolerant' actually behaved in that case.)
I will say that on the whole my time at APTS was a good experience. Thanks to good friends and some good profs.
Jim
Thank you. And, as a Presbyterian at Fuller, know that there ARE plenty of us young, future pastors around who believe similarly.
Presbyman & Will,
I just...um... chalked it up to memorable magistra moments.
Toby:
Again, I have similar experiences with a polar opposite result, as far as I can tell from what you've written.
It keeps one humble, or should.
Thanks for discussing your experiences. It has a humanizing effect in a situation where dehumanizing the theological "enemy" seems to be the norm.
"Faith seeking understanding"--fides quaerens intellectum--is a phrase of Anselm of Canterbury, 12th-century intellectual father of medieval scholasticism, and (ironically, given the anti-feminist subtheme of the comment stream) the first Christian scholar to refer to Jesus as "mother."
Toby...another great post....Link just went up over at the Eagle and Child.
Great posts, Toby. I'm looking forward to the next installment.
I second what Chris and Viola said about Christ in the Old Testament. One of the great things about patristic exegesis is the way the Fathers so consistently see Christ in the Old Testament, and make clear the unbreakable bond between Old and New. The drive to separate the two is a sign of the modern resurgence of a Gnostic mindset.
Toby,
Going to do a "cross-over" (a comic book reference for those not in the know). Check it out!
Toby.
Nice bit.
At Princeton we got the impression that all the fundies were either sentimentalists, substandard academes, or just bozos. It's funny how you can get an attitude about things when truth is no longer a worthy referent.
Pax
Again to be clear, Noel: I think we all believe in truth. We just differ on what we believe the truth to be.
Even the most jaded postmodern emergent hipster thinks there is truth. They might just not admit in on the public stage while the candles are lit and the incense is burning.
The longer I am in ministry, the more I am thankful for my college education. I attended an R.C.A. affiliated school here in Iowa and am eternally grateful for that! Imagine this: a mainline college that requires ALL STUDENTS to take one course in Biblical Studies and one course in Reformed Theology as a Liberal Arts Requirement! They do still exist.
When I entered seminary, I was light years ahead of my classmates in theology and biblical studies. Unfortunately, I still had to play 'the game'. I struggled through "Reformed Theology" with Schleiermacher as our primary text. I sat bored in lecture after lecture of OT as I listened to outdated arguments about the Historical Critical method. Somehow I managed to avoid the ism-theology classes, but it was hard to avoid the tendancy to 'ism' pretty much everything in each class.
All the time I was in seminary I asked myself why I was there. I made a lot of friends and surely grew in faith. But it had zero to do with my professors or what they taught. Thank God for my college education. When all my A-student friends were struggling to pass ordination exams, I was secretly greatful that the bulk of my 'eccleasiastical education' took place somewhere else.
I am not saying I was a better student than any of them. I just had the advantage of attending a faithfully Reformed institution BEFORE I got to seminary.
Wow, Toby, what an interesting testimony.
In all fairness, I have to say that many folks coming out of the more progressive seminaries often do not seem to understand the orthodox position relating to the Scripture. (I mean they seem to think that we all believe the Scripture dropped from Heaven literally dictated by the Holy Spirit in the King James vernacular.) LOL
It was my experience that for the most part, more conservative theologians were not even mentioned, let alone studied.
Also, I think there is a much greater tendency among progressives to have their thinking really conditioned by naturalism, as well as a post-modern concept of truth. This impacts their view, and interpretation of Scripture as well.
Studying and fellowshipping in a variety of settings both progressive, and more conservative, I can honestly say for the most part anyway, those that take a more orthodox view of Scripture are almost always more spiritually discerning, resistant to heresy, more committed to evangelical outreach, just in general I think more excited about the Christian faith, and seeing people come to Christ.
I think there must be a connection.
Toby,
I want to echo the approval for this last post. Our spiritual journeys are not our own to keep, but to be shared with and to become part of the journey of the community. Thank you for sharing.
I noticed this line: "I had found myself the guy that I used to laugh about. "
Hang on to that. It will happen a few more times in your life.
"Also, I think there is a much greater tendency among progressives to have their thinking really conditioned by naturalism, as well as a post-modern concept of truth. This impacts their view, and interpretation of Scripture as well."
Oh, come now - but we do appreciate the flattery. On behalf of the eeevil progressives, I thank you. :)
((Doug,)) you evil rascal. (laughing)
Hey, seriously, I don't think the progressives are evil, just wrong, and misguided in certain areas anyway.
Plus, there's a diversity there, I know. I've met folks who are really quite orthodox theologically who self-identify as progressive more for social, and political reasons.
But, anyway, think about this in a deep way, brother. Is it good to be blindly conditioned by culture?
(Can you tell my undergraduate major was anthro. ? :) )
How can we put our awesome God in this limiting, naturalistic box? To paraphrase a passage of Scripture. "Why should you think it incredible that God should raise the dead?"
On top of that are post-modern concepts of truth really reasonable? Or is there an objective true, truth out there, that remains the same in spite of anyone's limited and fallible perception. Can real truth contradict itself?
Hey, I think Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life for everyone, the Savior of the whole world.
Grace,
I didn't major in Anthro, but I know something about cultures.
How do you define "culture"?
"Is it good to be blindly conditioned by culture?"
Isn't that kind of the definition of culture? The socially defined set of rules that we assume unconsciously? There are various in America, whether you are progressive or conservative, Euro American or African American, etc.
What we assume to be conservative Christianity or progressive Christianity is Christianity blindly conditioned by conservative culture or blindly conditioned by progressive culture.
You have to be truly bicultural before you can start telling what is culture and what is not. Meaning you have to able to experience the gestalt of another culture before you can see your own from the outside and recognize it for what it is.
Hint: Its almost all culture.
Applied to conservative or progressive Christianity, if you are Progressive, you can only really tell what about your faith is a product of progressive culture by becoming conservative. Likewise, if you are conservative.
For me it is shocking to realize how little is really Christianity and how much is culture.
But I agree that it is a necessary step if you want to engage in cross-cultural evangelism.
And it is the main reason why I think Jesus emphasized being humble and living in peace with each other over judging each other. You don't have to become bi-cultural to agree to disagree and choose to live in peace. You can just take it on faith that there are other valid ways of being a Christian that you can't possibly understand.
You can also think of Christianity as being a alternative culture altogether. I think that is why Jesus used the term "Kingdom of Heaven". He lived in a multicultural land, and people would have resonated with that metaphor.
The Kingdom of God is neither Progressive nor Conservative. It is on a different plane altogether.
>>I think one of my biggest complaints about liberal and progressive theology is their failure to find Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, when Jesus actually pointed to himself there.<<
I think I had professors at SFTS that could not find Jesus in the New Testament. My time at seminary (and it was a ten year journey for me) molded me into a "fundamentalist" in the classic and hopefully best sense of the word.
Thanks for sharing the journey. I so resonate with it.
Chris Enoch
Pastor, Third Presbyterian Church
Uniontown, PA
Jodie,
You don't have to become bicultural in order to discern the elements of Christianity that are culturally transcendent. Just be in healthy communion with Christians in different cultures and they'll tell you.
Hmmm...maybe some folks in the Anglican and Presbyterian organizations should try that again.
Hey Chris E.!
I see you're in Uniontown...
Want to come and help me move in?
:)
Toby Wrote: I see you're in Uniontown...
Want to come and help me move in?
Where you moving to? (I'm blissfully unaware) Although I'm sure I'm busy that day/weekend/year.... :)
-Chris
Chris E,
We're moving to Saxonburg at the end of July.
And if you have any sense at all, you WILL be busy that day...
Isn't that what youth groups are for, moving in the new pastor??
Let me know Toby and I'll be there
It's true, Jodie. We're all conditioned by our culture, and it can be difficult, almost impossible, to step outside of that.
Definitely agree that there are many ways folks might express their Christian faith, and tons of areas where we can agree to disagree. The role of women, and the sexuality issue are two issues that spring to mind.
But, are you also able to agree that there are some common perimeters that all Christians will affirm despite any cultural or social difference.
Coming from Lutheran background, and now attending an Episcopal church, I think the awesome truth of the incarnation is one of these shared areas of agreement.
For me, the very center of our faith, is that God entered fully into human life, and suffering. He loves us so deeply that He became one of us in Jesus Christ, God with skin on, so to speak.
Another, is the reality of the atonement, that Jesus Christ by His dying, and rising again puts us right with God, and with each other. In Him, we are being made a new creation. God reconciled the world to Himself in Christ.
Hey, these are all mysteries of our faith to be sure, that our finite human minds can never fully comprehend, and understand.
But, I can't think that any church is fully and authentically Christian which has moved away from this confession.
I was sharing on another blog, that Christian people who feel so strongly concerning all this are not expressing themselves out of fear, or insecurity. It's not as if we want to be mean-spirited or exclusive.
But, it's just that we can't experience a spiritual unity, and fellowship in Jesus Christ that's not really there. And, how would it be loving or honest to pretend otherwise?
Can you see what I'm saying, Jodie?
Love,
Grace.
Great post. Tim referred me to your blog and I will continue reading. What you describe almost sounds like a conversion experience! Keep the faith, brother.
"I was launched out of the halls of academia into the parish with shelves full of books that would refute any notion that the Bible was consistent, had a central, coherent message...."
And now, "intertexuality" is in vogue. I was at a Society of Biblical Literature seminar where a scholar was treated as quaint for speaking of Yahwist and Elohist sources. The same collective which insisted for nearly a century upon parsing Scripture into JEDP has moved onto other fads while places like Fuller have become the new spawning ground for a generation of ministers who are as skeptical of the unity of Scripture as the earlier generations of graduates from the more liberal institutions.
Really good post, Toby.
Great post, Toby!
As a fellow APTS graduate, I resonate with your post.
Your words brought to mind a book I ordered from CBD while suffering through a higher-critical New Testament class at APTS.
The book is titled "Historical Criticism of the Bible: Methodology or Ideology." The author (Eta Linnemann) was schooled under Bultmann and (if I remember right) later experienced a profound conversion to Jesus.
She eventually left her spiritually-barren academic environment to teach Bible school students in Indonesia!
Notably, in her book she counsels people to throw in the trash all the higher-critical writings she authored earlier in life!
Great advice!
I wish I could get a copy of her book in the hands of every mainline seminary student!
Hi Deutero,
I had a chance to hear her speak and debate at Denver Seminary when I was a student there. She was terrific and I appreciated very much her personal story as well as her thoughtful and gentle answers. She was debating a very liberal professor from Iliff School of Theology.
One moment I remember very vividly was in the question and answer time after the presentation. One student asked the liberal professor, how he could consider himself Christian, when everything he believed was the opposite of orthodox Protestant Chrisitianity. He simply answered, I am a Christian because I choose to call myself a Christian. That is the end product of theological liberalism.
Adel,
For all the hype about inclusive and wholistic religion, liberalism in theology ends up doing the same thing as liberalism does anywhere else: the exact opposite of its stated intent. (h/t Quinn's First Law)
What we're dealing with now is a more radicalized form of the skepticism that bred nominalism in the Middle Ages. Post-modernism is just nominalism dressed up in punk-rock granola. We're so ignorant of history that we think this is an epoch-defining challenge that the Church has never faced before. It's my contention that nominalism leads to nominal Christians, which leads to excessive dependence on human systems / tradition, and - most importantly - gets supplanted by Reformed / Biblical Christianity. May God renew His Church.
"That mocking derision to the simple-minded folk who actually claimed what I now claimed about the Bible was directed at me."
But on the plus side, now you get to say that everyone who disagrees with you is an apostate bent on destroying the church.
So it's pretty much a wash.
Wow, Pastor Meghan,
That's not what I hear Toby saying. :(
....We're moving to Saxonburg at the end of July.....
Toby, my open days between now and late August are few and far between. Doesn't mean I don't have any however.
Read through my recent posts on FFE (presbynet) and you will get my email and phone number if you are really in a bind. Seriously
God bless you!
-Chris
Debbie,
yes, I can see what you are saying. Its unfortunate.
Probably explains why the Gospel is more of a failure than a success.
"are you also able to agree that there are some common perimeters that all Christians will affirm despite any cultural or social difference."
Yes. Prayer mostly - The Lord's Prayer in particular. The Apostle's Creed is pretty common, and so are the importance of the beatitudes and the sermon on the mount. Loving your neighbor as yourself (maybe not in practice, but in principle),...Baptism and the Lord's Supper... Not much else.
"Wow, Pastor Meghan,
That's not what I hear Toby saying. :("
Toby's not saying it, but quite a few commenters here are.
Double :(
One thing I have noticed in my life is that people who always point to the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount in general as normative, 1) Have not carefully read it and what it fully entails (i.e.- Matt 5:17ff), 2) Do not understand it in context (especially its relation to the covenant blessings/curses), 3) Draw conclusions from it that are not actually there, 4) Would not agree with it at all if they did 1-3.
As well as what it really means to "Love your neighbor as yourself"...
Lev 19:18 ring a bell?
I picked up a copy of a book by Linnemann at a clearance bookstore a year or so ago. Good stuff. It reminds me a bit of how, with the advent of computers and modern statistical models and programs, Gordon Wenham once wrote a paper on the Documentary Hypothesis in which he demonstrated (with objective data, mind you) that the so-called texts just do not pass serious serious statistical scrutiny.
Ben,
So I guess even that is interpreted based on culture of origin. (Yours being the only one that gets it and all others do not?)
That leaves as the only common parameters the Lord's Prayer, Baptism and the Lord's Supper.
Prayer and Mystery: The universal basis of our faith.
I could go with that.
Jodie,
Try the culture of Jesus' day.
Let's see... Jesus taught on baptism maybe three times (in the gospels). The Supper once. The Lord's prayer once - though I'm sure that's just a vignette, and a taste of what bathed his whole ministry.
Yet his redemptive death, resurrection, and the reality of repentance and forgiveness remained the fixture of his teaching per the gospels. Further, the first response to this knowledge is worship of his divine person and acknowledging him as Lord (YHWH).
Shouldn't that feature a little more prominently in the essentials?
But, Chris, and Jodie,
Aren't you saying essentially the same thing? Baptism, and the Lord's Supper do point to the redeemptive death, and resurrection of the Lord, as well as the reality of repentence, and forgiveness.
I think the apostles creed is a good basic statement of faith.
It's all connected.
So you both agree then?? Yes? :)
Chris-
The work of Larry Hurtado was eye-opening for me. I'd recommend "How On Earth Did Jesus Become A God?". It points to exactly what you said, that devotion to the divine Jesus emerged quite soon after his death. It might make for good summer reading.
Grace - I think it'd be difficult to say that Jodie and I agree. I'm a full-fledged Trinitarian. Unless Jodie has changed his position, he is some sort of modalist. So even if we agreed on the words of the Apostles Creed in separation, we couldn't hold to them in the same way with the same meanings and as a unity - again, unless Jodie has become orthodox in Theology Proper.
Nathan - If I didn't have a family to take care of, I'd likely be studying under Hurtado now. I've read most of his books and numerous articles - ALWAYS salutary.
I'm feeling confused. :(
Sorry, Grace. Is there something in particular that confuses you? Or is it just that - because we sometimes say the same words, we should be assumed to be speaking about the same things?
For instance, what George W. Bush calls "compassionate conservatism" might not be what you call compassionate or I call conservative.
Grace,
Jodie, in that comment that Chris highlighted, is saying that sometimes God is Father, some times Son and sometimes the Holy Spirit. In church history that is called modalism. It is considered unbiblical and is denied by the Confessions of the Church. The Father is always the Father, the same with the Son and the Holy Spirit. Co-equal and co-eternal is one way of explaining the persons of the Trinity.
Buy, how can someone affirm the apostle's creed, and the significance of the Lord's supper, and be a modalist at the sametime?
Maybe there's been a misunderstanding.
Hoping! :)
I of course can't speak for Jodie,
But sometimes people simply affirm a creed because it is what the Church has affirmed, but they don't really hold to the finer points. That is they don't agree with the particulars of a creed just with the beautiful language, etc. I have seen this with someone who believed that any religion brought the adherent to God, and yet said they affirmed the words of a creed which said that Jesus Christ was the only way to God.
Toby is the Anti-Ehrman!!!
Folks,
Just to set the record straight, I am not a modalist. Probably the biggest difference between what I said and what modalism says is that Modalism says God puts on different masks, and what I said is that >we< put on different masks.
Beyond that, the Doctrine of the Trinity is a human invention that tries to explain how it is that we can be monotheists and worship God the Father, his Son, and the Holy Spirit. The fact that people still argue about it passionately today is evidence that a) it is an unsatisfactory explanation, and b) nobody has any idea what they are really talking about. God Is Who God Is. That is God's name. We will never fully understand it and that is what the Doctrine of the Trinity ultimately asserts: A Mystery.
But back to the original question, Grace asked me what I thought all cultures would agree upon as core Christianity. All of you are making the case that I propose, namely that precious little is agreed upon.
The Apostles Creed, so long as nobody tries to interpret the creed, is possibly held in common. Prayer is held in common, though we would be hard pressed to say that we experience it all the same. But all Christians pray, and all Christians pray the Lord's prayer. At least all the ones I have encountered on multiple continents and languages. The same is true for Baptism and the Lord's prayer. They do not all say the same things about these two sacraments, but they all agree it is essential to practice them, and they all agree they are somewhat mysterious.
So, using what all cultures have in common as a measure for what is essential, we are left with Prayer and the Mystery of the sacraments. And maybe the recitation of the Apostle's creed, with no sidebar or editorializing.
Toby,
It is a true joy to hear how the Lord worked through His inerrant Word and through faithful disciples to bring the message of the gospel so powerfully to your life. I am very thankful for you and for others whom the Lord awoke to the truths of the God’s Word. It is truly an amazing testimony.
What I am worried about is that some might get the impression that therefore these Liberal and Neoorthodox Seminaries aren’t so bad. My prayers are for those 10’s and possibly 100’s of thousands of men, women and children who are unwarily exposed to these heresies on Sundays and in mid-week classes and small groups, through preachers that are trained at these Seminaries. The decline of a once great denomination started at the Seminary level. These pastors preach a gospel that cannot save and a Christ that has little or nothing to do with Biblical revelation. I pray for those who are still young in their faith, then exposed to these false teachers, may they find their way to a Biblically faithful church.
Jodie wrote:
"Probably explains why the Gospel is more of a failure than a success."
My pastor reads alot and, coincidentally, he wrote the following about Newton's A Review of Ecclesiastical History:
Simply put, only the gospel in its pristine purity is sufficient to convert (justify) sinners and conform (sanctify) believers to Jesus Christ. It is not gospel preaching itself that is impotent but the preaching of a gospel that is not free and by faith that is incapable of accomplishing the necessary work in the world. The gospel is not a 'how to' manual centered on making the lives of sinners better without the gospel's application to their souls. Rather, it is a 'Who did' proclomation of the work of Jesus Christ on behalf of sinners who cannot do, what most needs to be done! Religion says 'do.' The gospel says, 'done!'
See his post on Read With Me
Hi, Jodie, (thanks for sharing your thinking) and everyone.
You have to see this article, and tell me what you think.
Go over to the "Anglican Centrist," and check out the article called 325AD "An Essential."
It's right there after, "Toby's Tale."
Derek Olson (a Phd candidate at Emory) first published this for the "Episcopal Cafe."
Anyway he talks about what happened at the Council of Nicea, and why the orthodox party stood so strongly against Arius, affirming the apostolic witness. Oh, it was about more than political wrangling, as so often is thought.
He shares why the witness to God as trinity is so very important for the church.
It's super interesting, and made an impact on me.
Would try to do a link for everyone, but I'm basically terrible with computers.
If you are talking about the 'cultures of the world', meaning the so called Third World, I think they probably have more agreement on these issues than we do in the West. As far as a majority of world Christians go, I think an overwhelming majority of them would affirm the trinity as well as traditional beliefs about scripture, the identity of Christ, and a personal God. Likewise, many African, South American, and Asian Christians would affirm the Apostle's Creed with little hesitation. Even taking a narrow view, a majority of the world's Presbyterians live outside the United States. While our denominations are slipping away, the faith is exploding in places like Ghana and Kenya where the church holds overwhelming tradtional views. I believe that in the next fifty years you will see Asian and African missionaries coming to preach and teach in the U.S. and Europe. The future of our church is the world church.
Jodie wrote
"The Apostles Creed, so long as nobody tries to interpret the creed, is possibly held in common."
We can also all agree on keeping the ordination standards as they are right now, as long as nobody tries to define what words mean and we all get to define them as we like.
jodie said, "The same is true for Baptism and the Lord's prayer. They do not all say the same things about these two sacraments, but they all agree it is essential to practice them, and they all agree they are somewhat mysterious."
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't mean what you wrote. I'm not aware of any Christian group that considers the Lord's Prayer a sacrament, although I'll agree that most Christian groups do "practice" it.
Jodie,
Let me see if I understand what you are saying as to what universally accepted as "core Christianity"
Maybe the Apostle's Creed, as long as no one defines it. What does not defining it mean? What do you do with "(Jesus) born of the virgin Mary"? Is it alright to "define" this as all Christians must believe in the literal physical incarnation? Or is it alright to define this (as many liberals do) as metaphorical and symbolic, but never literal historical, which is simply a dishonest way of rejecting it?
Then there is prayer (though many experience it differently) and the Lord's prayer. How nice. We can pray...maybe hit the ceiling...try going outside. Pray to whom or what? Pray for what purpose? I believe almost all religions have some sort of prayer...is that the same? The Lord's prayer too. How nice of you to add that one. But isn't calling God Father a no no in this PCUSA?
Then there are the sacraments (although I believe the Baptists prefer ordinances). And everyone agrees that they are full of mystery. How nice? Hmmmm? Don't the Catholics believe that their infant baptism is salvific? At least that part is not a mystery for them.
Wow! The Trinity is a human creation? How about the Great Commission (baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)? But maybe you believe Matthew and all scripture is merely a human, totally messy creation?
How absolutely minimalist of you. I think I can get my agnostic, atheist, buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, and JW friends and neighbors to agree to your core beliefs. Then we can all be one happy tolerant family.
Toby,
I am trying my hand at something similar on my blog. Come by when you get a chance.
http://graceandlaw.blogspot.com/
Folks,
Jodie is trying to list essentials that the breadth of people who call themselves Christian would agree on. I don't think that is the same thing as what Jodie believes.
I think some are confusing the two.
Nav,
I am pretty sure ordination standards are highly culturally specific.
There is a joke they tell in small towns in South America. They say that everybody calls the local priest "father" except his children. They call him "uncle".
It illustrates a culturally specific reality about ordination standards. Not funny in the US, but considered hilarious in just about any small Spanish or Portuguese speaking town.
James,
You caught a typo. That should have read "The same is true for Baptism and the Lord's Supper"
Adel,
Thanks for replying, even if it was a bit of a non sequitur. You didn't cuss at me, so that's a plus.
Mark,
Thanks, I tried. Twice.
Grace,
Nice write up. Derek Olsen seems like a talented young man.
There are many fascinating angles to the the story of Constantine and the birth of Christianity as the religion of the Empire.
For me, what stands out is the audacity of the authors of the Nicene to tell a Roman emperor that only Jesus could be called the Son of God. That was the traditional title of all Roman Emperors for hundreds of years.
If Constantine had not been sincere in his faith, it would have cost them their lives.
Rubber,
Not sure what you mean by "Third World" but the number of cultures and Christianities outside the US are much higher than they are in the US. They agree on even less than conservatives and progressives do within the US. Take our sister church in one African country. While they all seem to agree that gays should not be ordained, they tell me there is considerable disagreement on whether polygamists should. Specially polygamists who came to the faith already after having acquired several wives.
Should a man abandon all his wives but one, and essentially force the rest into prostitution in oder to abide by the biblical mandated to be the "husband of one wife" (1 Tim 3:12, Titus 1:6)?
It's a cause for much turmoil and division in the congregation.
And for a black woman to be seen in the company of a white man without a black chaperon is considered brazen and shocking. Apparently it is tantamount to admitting to being a white man's whore. Only the most liberal progressives would display such audacious behavior.
They cannot understand why we even raise the question of gay ordination. But they can't figure out what to do with polygamists.
Wow, Jodie,
That's a difficult situation in Africa. I know it's a controversy with the Anglicans too. What solution have the churches worked out, in general?
I suppose that every situation is different.
One of my major issues with polygamy is that it seems to treat women with less than full equality, as if they're nothing more than property.
I wonder if they're not alot of issues between these women, and their children, who is the most favored by their husband..., and so on??
But, surely, that's a lesser evil than a woman being forced into prostitution. Still, are there no other alternatives?
It sounds like a sad situation in some of these other cultures you've mentioned.
Could part of the difficulty be that people go into ministry for a variety of reasons other than God's call, and a love for the Lord, or a real committment to the gospel?
In general, I think people can become enculturated into the institutional church, without truly knowing Christ as Savior, and Lord. (I'm speaking from personal experience as well.)
Grace,
The answer of African Christians to polygamy has been simple. It's the same answer that orthodox churches give to homosexuals in America: you can stay, but don't expect us to ordain you or not to preach against your sin.
Awesome testimony. God is so great and reaches us where we are. I pray that the Lord will use you and other Orthodox, Reformed, Christians in the PCUSA to bring that onsce great denomination back to the Bible and its Christ.
I am a PCA brother just over the Sabine in Louisiana.
Coram Deo,
Kenith
A very eloquent testimony to God’s grace and redemptive power. I hope it is OK with you if I post it on my blog. Thank you for sharing what God is doing in your life. It is an encouragement to all of us who struggle as ‘conservatives’ in the ‘mainline’ (perhaps more accurately ‘old line’ nowadays) denominations.
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